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VeryLTTP said: So we've gone from "Shield Hero normalizes slavery and misogyny" to "Raphtalia is a masochist"... I wonder what other hot takes will come about within the next few episodes. I said Raph had masochistic tendencies, yes. Stockholm Syndrome is, boiled down, a masochistic tendency. It's loving those who hurt you. I don't think I said Raph actually enjoys the pain itself, however. If I did, I erred, I didn't mean it like that. But she absolutely has come to love a man who abuses her. This is sadomasochism. There's no better word to describe it. borderliner said: According to this logic Naofumi can never be forgiven by the absolutists but further they will insist that Raphtalia cannot forgive him either. There are hills worth dying on. "Men who torture little girls are irredeemable monsters" is a point I'm proud to dig my heels in over. Don't @ me SuccHunter said: True. Naofumi adopts a very "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" attitude towards slavery. But you refuse to acknowledge the necessity Naofumi sees in doing so. Sorry, I'd love to respond to the whole of your post, but I'm mentally exhausted in responding to everyone here, and I think a lot of what you wrote I already rebutted. Killuan said: tl;dr <ignores> |
TalconJan 19, 2019 4:47 PM
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Like I said, the raging outside of the window. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this righteous anger was turned against the actual iniquities of the world |
| Quantum ille canis est in fenestra |
Talcon said: I said Raph had masochistic tendencies, yes. Stockholm Syndrome is, boiled down, a masochistic tendency. It's loving those who hurt you. I don't think I said Raph actually enjoys the pain itself, however. If I did, I erred, I didn't mean it like that. But she absolutely has come to love a man who abuses her. This is sadomasochism. There's no better word to describe it. Masochism or sadomasochism involve enjoyment/pleasure, however. If you "didn't mean it like that" as you said, then the conditions of the relationship to be sadomasochistic are unfulfilled. |
VeryLTTP said: If you "didn't mean it like that" as you said, then the conditions of the relationship to be sadomasochistic are unfulfilled. There's a distinction between 'being a masochist' and 'having masochistic tendencies'. For example, abused spouses are not masochists (they don't enjoy being beaten), but they stick with those who hurt them anyway. Why? Because they "love" them. They "love" those who hurt them. This is a masochistic tendency, but it is not fair to say that they, in totality, are masochists. Do you understand what I mean now? |
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Talcon said: VeryLTTP said: If you "didn't mean it like that" as you said, then the conditions of the relationship to be sadomasochistic are unfulfilled. There's a distinction between 'being a masochist' and 'having masochistic tendencies'. For example, abused spouses are not masochists (they don't enjoy being beaten), but they stick with those who hurt them anyway. Why? Because they "love" them. They "love" those who hurt them. This is a masochistic tendency, but it is not fair to say that they, in totality, are masochists. Do you understand what I mean now? That argument is still flawed because by definition, masochism involve enjoyment of pain. To have masochistic tendencies, then that person will have tendencies to enjoy pain. As a result, your point is a non sequitor. The logic simply does not follow due to the incorrect application of the word 'masochistic'. Edit: It's also worth pointing out that 'tendencies' mean habit or impulse. A person having masochistic tendencies means that that person has a habit of enjoying pain. As a result, not only did you apply 'masochistic' incorrectly, but also 'tendencies'. A character that actually has 'masochistic tendencies' would be Darkness from KonoSuba. This would be the correct application of the phrase. |
VeryLTTPJan 19, 2019 5:18 PM
VeryLTTP said: That argument is still flawed because by definition, masochism involve enjoyment of pain. To have masochistic tendencies, then that person will have tendencies to enjoy pain. That's why I'm saying she's not a masochist. Only that she is tended towards it. Raph enjoys being near someone who hurts her. You should not enjoy being near people who hurt you. It means you will be hurt further. For me to withdraw my complaint, Raph would have to become, let's say, very withdrawn and distrusting of her new master. She would not smile near him, and not adore him in any way. We're only two episodes in, how much are you willing to bet he'll grow on her? Oh, but you'll say he will grow as a person. He'll stop abusing her. This isn't how it works. Men who torture children never "learn". They don't "grow as people". They're irredeemable creatures. If their relationship improved, to where they respect each other's individual autonomy, I'd put it down as bad character writing. Which is most certainly going to happen. Edit: VeryLTTP said: A character that actually has 'masochistic tendencies' would be Darkness from KonoSuba. This would be the correct application of the phrase. No, she's a full blown masochist. She doesn't just exhibit some particular behaviors of masochism, it's just her identity. Glad to clear that up for you. |
TalconJan 19, 2019 5:21 PM
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A tendency means that it is a habit. "Masochistic tendencies" would therefore mean that a person has a habit of feeling pleasure from pain. As a result, you incorrectly applied both of those words. Raph enjoys being near someone who hurts her. You should not enjoy being near people who hurt you. There is a clear difference between a person enjoying being near someone who happens to hurt that person vs. a person enjoying near someone because that someone is hurting the person. "Someone who hurts her" is also extremely vague. That someone can hurt her by accidentally bumping into her without looking. Should that person avoid that someone because of an accident? This also puts your conclusion in your second sentence in question because that claim derives from a rather wide-cast, general statement. It means you will be hurt further. This claim is also dependent on the vague claim I pointed out. You will be hurt further if the person inflicting the pain is doing so out of habit. However, if the pain is not inflicted out of habit, then most likely you won't be hurt further. Further pain can only happen if there is repetition of the infliction. For me to withdraw my complaint, Raph would have to become, let's say, very withdrawn and distrusting of her new master. She would not smile near him, and not adore him in any way. We're only two episodes in, how much are you willing to bet he'll grow on her? This is a flawed argument, as well because this is also based on the vague "You should not enjoy being near people who hurt you" statement. Oh, but you'll say he will grow as a person. He'll stop abusing her. This isn't how it works. That is definitely how it works because that is how the series was written. The MC does grow since that is how the author wrote it. Men who torture children never "learn". They don't "grown as a person". They're irredeemable creatures. Which men? Real-life men? If so, then complaining about a work of fiction because of real-world reasons is a rather weak point to make. What constitutes as "torture" for you? Because I did not spot any torture in the second episode. Because your first sentence is based off of a false pretense, the next two sentences are meaningless as they don't apply to Shield Hero. If their relationship improved, to where they respect each other's individual autonomy, I'd put it down as bad character writing. Which is most certainly going to happen. Again, you are basing this on a false pretense that there is "torture" in the 2nd episode. No, she's a full blown masochist. She doesn't just exhibit some particular behaviors of masochism, it's just her identity. Glad to clear that up for you. She is both a masochist and has masochistic tendencies because the way she is depicted matches the definitions of both phrases. |
VeryLTTP said: A tendency means that it is a habit. "Masochistic tendencies" would therefore mean that a person has a habit of feeling pleasure from pain. As a result, you incorrectly applied both of those words. I've already rebutted this point. I'm not super excited to keep explaining what words mean VeryLTTP said: "Someone who hurts her" is also extremely vague. That someone can hurt her by accidentally bumping into her without looking. Should that person avoid that someone because of an accident? How about pressing a button that electrocutes you? Still vague? VeryLTTP said: This claim is also dependent on the vague claim I pointed out. You will be hurt further if the person inflicting the pain is doing so out of habit. He's doing it because she won't obey him. He is breaking her will into submission. And she eventually submits. And then she loves him. Not sure how much further I can break this down. VeryLTTP said: What constitutes as "torture" for you? Because I did not spot any torture in the second episode. https://i.imgur.com/1fe60pZ.png I'm actually going to close this conversation down right now. I don't know how you could write such a statement, it bewilders and quite frankly angers me. I don't think I could continue this conversation without breaking forum rules and insulting you, because defending that is beyond the pale for me. It's compromising. This is the last time I will be talking to you in this thread. Goodbye. |
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Talcon said: I've already rebutted this point. I'm not super excited to keep explaining what words mean Saying that you rebutted my point without elaborating anything farther than a claim is not a rebuttal. How about pressing a button that electrocutes you? Still vague? Yeah, it's still vague. What's the context? Is the button presser doing so out of glee? Is the button presser doing so out of desperation? Is the button presser doing so only for his own benefit? He's doing it because she won't obey him. He is breaking her will into submission. And she eventually submits. And then she loves him. Not sure how much further I can break this down. Telling Raph that if she helps him fight, kids like her won't have to suffer the consequences of getting orphaned and enslaved after a wave equates to breaking her will into submission? https://i.imgur.com/1fe60pZ.png I'm actually going to close this conversation down right now. I don't know how you could write such a statement, it bewilders and quite frankly angers me. I don't think I could continue this conversation without breaking forum rules and insulting you, because defending that is beyond the pale for me. It's compromising. "Oh, I can't even..." or "How f***in dare you" are not arguments. To further bolster my point, Raph's previous master tortured her out of enjoyment. He did so over and over again. Meanwhile, Raph would sometimes be confused when Naofumi treats her to lunch or when he bought her a ball. It's because she got used to getting scolded and physically beaten for no good reason. In addition, when the seal activated again when Naofumi was fending off the two-headed dog, he stopped the effects of the seal because he knew Raph was hesitant and thus, he told her to run away. Earlier in the episode, when the seal activated when Raph didn't want to kill the rabbit, Naofumi wasn't exactly proud of the seal hurting her. There was a shot of him without his eyes being shown. From what I'm reading, you are arguing along the technical terms of "torture". However, I'm arguing from a connotation standpoint because whenever I hear the word, "torture", I think of physical beatings or insidious machinations used to harm others, such as religious fanatics torturing those of other religions (or lack thereof) because they're "infidels" or "heathens" in their eyes. If you insist on calling that above example as torture, then wouldn't a parent spanking a child so he/she behave be torture, too? After all, you are arguing from a semantic standpoint. My example fits your interpretation of torture since: (1) The parent is inflicting physical harm on someone. (2) The parent is knowingly doing the act. (3) The action of spanking is done to make the child behave/stop being disobedient. Or how about a fighter pinning down his opponent and repeatedly throwing blows to the opponent's head until he yields? (1) The fighter is throwing punches to the opponent's head. (physical harm) (2) The fighter is doing so on purpose. (Conscious act) (3) He's throwing hits to his opponent's head because he wants his opponent to yield so he can win the match. (Coercing an action out of the victim) This is the last time I will be talking to you in this thread. Goodbye. I don't see how running away from the conversation just because I asked you a question and said I didn't see the torture in the episode helps your case. And let's say hypothetically, I concede to your claims that Naofumi is torturing Raph and their relationship is sadomachistic. There's one problem. Your claims are not arguments; they're merely observations. Observations can be used to support an argument, so what are you trying to argue with these (incorrect) observations? |
VeryLTTPJan 19, 2019 6:56 PM
Ddos_Dragon said: Esquirtit said: there's no point in her being a slave lol some lazy ass shit weak episode enjoyed the first one way more and how tf does his shield even work that's like the only thing I look forward too I actually disagree. I think the fact that he can't trust the intentions of people justifies him buying a slave who can't defy him.. Indeed, anyone that says that he should have freed her after buying her is an idiot. He spent almost the entirety of his money buying her, why would he risk the possibility of her not agreeing to join him when there is no incentive for her to do so at that point? Sure she could have said yes at first, but what's to say that she doesn't try to kill him or runaway in the middle of the night? People that get betrayed as badly as Naofumi did, they're not going to be all that trusting of anyone else for however long it takes for them to get through/over the fact. And speaking of time, that's something that Naofumi does not have. If he freed Raph the minute he fully equipped and fed her, and she ran off, he would have to start the process of saving enough money to get yet another slave and get them equipped else the slave will not be able to fight. Of course, it also means his level and gear will be even worse than if he had kept Raph under the slave spell. |
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| I was not expecting this episode to make me so emotional!! ;__; Raphtalia is the absOLUTE CUTESTTT I can't get enough of her ;;u; Looking forward to more of their interactions, it's so heartwarming T_T |
| People became so sensitive lately o.o, is fiction for the love of god, don't take literalmente everything. Ido recall in the past people weren't so damn triggered by everything. o.0 Been movies, animes, boks with worse subjects and worse the characters been treated and nobody were making a huge deal cus all knew: IS NOT SOMETHING REAL, is FICTION . If your fav author writes a subject similart, u drop him/her? I like it until now, i read the manga too and i know how the characters develop... enough said from me.,,, toward ep 3 we goooooooooo |
dany_elle1908Jan 19, 2019 10:38 PM
The spider is watching |
There is no point in her being free when he bought her and he can use her to level up Naofumi is really good guy. Feeding her good food, hugs her and takes care of her, and she is happy. Most slaves in real life are not treated like that |
Ddos_Dragon said: I understand that and last episode I thought him buying a slave would be interesting, however I didnt expect a character from some loli harem anime. So considering how fast the MC and plot developed in last episode having to see this harem slave interact as a shy loli with the MC for 20 min felt meaningless, it's not different from any other series where MC has to get new allies to fightEsquirtit said: there's no point in her being a slave lol some lazy ass shit weak episode enjoyed the first one way more and how tf does his shield even work that's like the only thing I look forward too I actually disagree. I think the fact that he can't trust the intentions of people justifies him buying a slave who can't defy him.. @thepath this how I feel about it |
| poop |
Aww, raphtalia so cute <3 |
My desire to read the source has never been so strong..but I must persevere. |
| Was hoping his edgy side was going to stay around for a little longer, but still liked this episode. Couldn't stop thinking how funny it'd have been if that slave kid had died on the spot right after he bought it. Who in their right mind would spend all their money on a sick slave with mental disorder, lol. At least she turned out to be pretty good. |
MilenninJan 20, 2019 11:15 AM
| I really love this anime ..... i have high expectations ! |
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| I'm liking this, MC is not garbage nor a cardboard cutout and the girl actually has a reason for being there. That's a lot more than what some of the garbage I've seen and heard of has. |
A Wild and Small Otaku has Appeared! |
| are we going to see an increase in tank, shield, and guardian class users in mmorpgs? dps to swiftly sweep mobs and avoiding those with high def/low atk in pvp... turtling is often seen as a boring playstyle the legendary weapons are more specialized, and equipping other class weapons isn't allowed the best defense is a good offense, I don't see how the other 3 with their spear, bow, and sword defend, but their style probably has to do more with "kill before getting killed" rather than "block and attack" I don't know what I'm writing about it's pretty eye-opening reading the LN manga and comparing and seeing the differences between the 2 (not too much, but noticeable; added scenes & details, obv. stuff, etc.) |
chuunigyoJan 21, 2019 6:31 PM
| Signature |
TsukuyomiREKT said: Some really dumb people in this thread crying about nothing? I'm shocked... Most of the world these days. All the political special snowflakes who don't even know what this show is actually about amuse me. These people need to take their but muh misogyny and pro-slavery stances somewhere that actually make sense. |
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| People are really mad about the fact he bought her, despite the fact it would have been much worse for her if he didn't? It's Mahoutsukai no Yome all over again... |
*laughs in Dimple*  |
| Can someone explain please, why Raphtalia's parents didn't jump with her. It looks very weird. They could survive, but they sacrificed themselves for no reason. |
| I like her cute eyes but long dense hair is not my thing.. wished she has short bob haircut instead, AFAIK too much long haired demi-humans in anime already |
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| Still didn't get any better, but at least the opening is pretty nice :") I'm surprised I didn't fall asleep while watching, lol. Oh and in the opening... should it be surprising that the protagonist gets the sidekicks with the best designs from them all? xD |
fluffsnakeJan 21, 2019 5:49 PM
malMaxi said: Let me make it as clear as possible. Choice under pressure does not inherently equal abuse. Neither it is an indication of any enjoyment in making said choice. If anything, i'd say that choice by Raftalia was driven by fear of loss and her desire to overcome her past self. I've already spent all the mental energy I want on this topic, but let me summarize briefly what I want to say 1. The argument that some people need a good master is irrelevant because Naofumi is not a good master. 2. He is not a good person, either. He may be a good "hero", because he wants to fight the waves, but being a good person, master, and hero are three entirely separate things. Naofumi fails on two of them. 3. The show has gone far enough to idolize their relationship. The ED has a smiling still image of Raph cuddling up next her to abuser. She should be withdrawn, shy, and terrified of the man who tortures her. She should not go "Omg he's the Shield hero I've always respected the heroes <3. And he gives me head pats too!". This is not how someone who is a victim of abuse acts. 4. I know it's just an analogy, so I don't want to get too upset over it, but I vehemently disagree that comparing Naofumi to a martial arts instructor is appropriate. I cannot stress this enough. He electrocuted. a child. for the sin. of not wanting to kill. I feel I should give you fair warning, because I've already given this treatment to two other people in this thread, but I want you to look at this picture: https://i.imgur.com/1fe60pZ.png If your argument even starts to hint at the idea that this is not torture, that's it's somehow some fatherly or teacherly discipline, we're done here. I would extend an olive branch, I would say the show can be redeemed... only if everything burns. If Naofumi dies in a miserable, horrible, wrenching death, and the show makes the point that it is all his fault, and abandons any pretense of a revenge/power fantasy, then I would say he got exactly what he deserved. But something tells me that won't happen. Something tells me Naofumi will "grow as a person" and get some manner of happy end, or perhaps a heroic death. Of course, if that were such the case, why is the show trying to humanize Naofumi? He's not human. He electrocutes children. |
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Dontre said: Can someone explain please, why Raphtalia's parents didn't jump with her. It looks very weird. They could survive, but they sacrificed themselves for no reason. Since there's no guarantee the dog won't give chase if they jump together, so they do a very parent thing by becoming dog bait to buy time and then hoping for the best that for every second they managed to stall would translate to their daughter's survival rate. |
NitroKageAki said: Dontre said: Can someone explain please, why Raphtalia's parents didn't jump with her. It looks very weird. They could survive, but they sacrificed themselves for no reason. Since there's no guarantee the dog won't give chase if they jump together, so they do a very parent thing by becoming dog bait to buy time and then hoping for the best that for every second they managed to stall would translate to their daughter's survival rate. But it could make only one parent to buy time. They saved her from the dog, but as orphan little girl have low chances to survive, isn't it? |
Dontre said: NitroKageAki said: Since there's no guarantee the dog won't give chase if they jump together, so they do a very parent thing by becoming dog bait to buy time and then hoping for the best that for every second they managed to stall would translate to their daughter's survival rate. But it could make only one parent to buy time. They saved her from the dog, but as orphan little girl have low chances to survive, isn't it? While I agree with you, logically, I also have to ask, “is it even reasonable to assume they were thinking in a logical manner at that moment?” That, and the possibility that one parent plus kid jumping off versus one parent staying might mean the dog jumps off to chase the bigger target. |
| I really enjoyed this second episode. I’m glad to see the novel writers, sjw’s and rebutters are having a field day. Too bad, I’m too lazy to read any of the resulting drivel. |
| Think it was a pretty solid episode overall, I think some moments could have been improved. In the manga he sees the best slave before Raphtalia, and I think the structure of how that worked out was better. Also when Raphtalia is offered the kids meal because "it looked like she wanted it" it doesn't make sense in the anime as she didn't even look at it. In the manga it clearly shows her wanting the food before she is offered. |
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| raphtalia seemed helpless at first. feel like shes gonna pussy out in the first wave, we'll see |
| You rang malMaxi? Apparently you had some kind of a problem with one of my nuggets of wisdom. Sadly, before I could read your no doubt blistering screed, it was deleted. Please do share. I want to read something that will catch my ears on fire and make my palms grow hairy. Please, I miss you. If on the other hand you're battling the barbarian sjws whining about this fictional work, my complements. I wish I wasn't so lazy and I would read the long winded screeds back and forth, but my mind just fogs over as I get into them, and I decide that spider solitaire is a better use of my time. |
Fede_5000 said: this is exactly the same as darlingXX This is one of the nuttiest things I've ever heard. Glad I was sitting down when I read this gem. Tell me what you're on, so that I'll never try it. |
| Raphtalia n Naofumi make a great duo, nice That last japanese flag scene annoyed me tho, what was even the point of it, seemed conceited. Its not like Japan is the only where children could get children set. |
| for someone who became filled with hatred, Naofumi sure is nice :/ |
| An admin's dickhead Soul banned me from MAL t('v't) |
| Loli racoon girl Raphtalia is pretty cute! Though she went through a traumatic event where her parents are killed by a monster, this might be a driving force for her to slay these monsters!? Anyway, Natsuo is still a good guy at heart, giving her all she wants as long as she's his blade and he's her shield. I'm excited to see what they would become once their levels are high. Now the ED is here. The ED is quite the opposite of the OP, it's relaxing and calmer, but still nice anyways. |
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| Okay....Raphtalia is absolutely adorable. |
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